Do Leeds Have a Case for Double Jeopardy?
The Leeds points tribunal got me thinking; the Yorkshire side received the standard 10 points deduction after entering administration towards the end of last season and then were landed with another 15 point fine at the start of this one for what was seemingly the same crime. If this in fact true, should Leeds have this season’s points deduction reinstated?
Leeds called in the administrators during the first week of May and therefore incurred the mandatory 10 points point deduction. But as we all know the story didn’t end here.
Foul Play?
The entire future of the once Premiership giants was in serious doubt after the club failed to agree a Company Voluntary Arrangement. Survive they did though and allowed to participate in Football’s League One; the only proviso they accept a further deduction of 15 points on this season’s league tally for allegedly breaking competition insolvency rules.
Since the whole debacle, the Football League have sewn up the loophole Leeds neatly jumped through. Any clubs that now go into administration after the fourth Thursday in March will have their 10-point deduction suspended. If the club is relegated, the points will be deducted from their tally at the start of the season.
If the club stays up, the 10 points penalty will then be taken off their tally at the end of the season. The club could then go down if the deduction resulted in them slipping into a relegation place.
A Question of Fairness
OK so now the law is there in black and white, every club fully understands the consequences should they find themselves meeting the same fate as Leeds. But in Leeds case, with events tinged with splashes of grey, the question of fairness comes into play.
As the rule then stood, it’s agreed that Leeds did not break any rules. The fact they brought the administrators in after they knew their relegation doom was actually not illegal, in truth it’s classed as rather smart thinking!
A Question of Fairness Part Deux
Unfortunately, because of the timing of the situation, other teams have now been brought into the fiasco of it all. In particular Carlisle who would lose their second place status and potentially automatic promotion. Understanding this, the Blues boss John Ward has already voiced his opinions on the matter stating any retracting would be grossly unfair to the other clubs and possibly ruining the league this season.
But if it is fairness in question here, the response is easy to answer; reinstate the points. Naturally much is being made of Leeds potential points boost but while others complain, the fact remains Leeds aren’t being ‘given’ 15 points; they have earned them like every other team in the league.
Only Carlisle have won more games at home than Leeds and only Swansea have won more games on the road. Leeds also have the second best goal difference in the league. So let’s give credit where credits due. After all, how many teams could turn out a season’s performance like Leeds after being dealt such a mental blow?
Leeds play Millwall on Saturday, number 26 in the Classic Pools game. Play Now>>
Tags: Administration, Coca Cola Football League One, Leeds United
April 17th, 2008 at 15:06
Here,here……. give them the points back….anyhow even if they dont get there points back…. within 3 years Leeds United will be back in the Prem……. where they belong as of the one most famous and prestigious clubs in the world never mind England…..
April 17th, 2008 at 15:24
Thank you, at last a piece which actually looks at the ‘fairness’ of the issue. Most of the dross and comments I have seen on this issue from journalists , managers and club chairmen up to no show just how totally ignorant and stupid they are, incredible they are involved in football at all.
Fairness is what the hearing is about, was it legitimate for the FL to impose this second penalty? Was the league correct when Leeds appealed to involve the clubs competitors..ie the other League clubs? and why have they delayed granting Leeds an independent hearing?
I do have some sympathy for the other clubs but this is not of Leeds Uniteds making, this is the Football League who have created this and made it worse by delaying tactics. The other clubs should be addressing their concerns to Mawhinney , he is respnsible for this debacle , if he had any conscience he would resign.
April 17th, 2008 at 15:26
this is the only article that makes complete sense to me. how can other clubs complain of unfairness against them when it is leeds who have suffered if indeed it is deemedto be so . we have played for those points and won them fair and square. if we deserve the points back lets have them and all the other clubs shut your whinging!!!!!!
April 17th, 2008 at 15:36
Perfect article here…and thats coming from me…a journalist,It states all the facts and logic in a balanced form. I agree with everything written, if you are not already in the media world…then you should be.
April 17th, 2008 at 15:47
Excellent article. Finally someone is actually figuring out what all this is about. Have the other clubs thought about the possible consequences for them if the dedeuction is upheld? Anyways, here’s to 15 points back and automatic promotion. Premiership top 5, here we come… MOT
April 17th, 2008 at 15:48
This article should be printed off and issued to every journo, pundit snd FL Director as to the true reality of the situation.
Still I suspect that the FL will be looking to issue a futher points deduction ‘fine’ to the club for daring to challenge them!!!
April 17th, 2008 at 15:56
This is the best article I have seen to date on the 15 points matter. Leeds have not broken any rules just used the rules to their own advantage. The league are upset that Mr Bates is more savvy than the second rate numbskull’s who administer football.As to Swansea, Carlisle etc I suppose the local chemists are doing a roaring trade in andrex and incontinence products.30 TO 40 THOUSAND fans will be willing Leeds on in the final game of the season at Elland Road as we bid this division goodbye
April 17th, 2008 at 16:10
FINALLY! Someone understands the whole situation. Now if only the rest of the media would take note from you!
April 17th, 2008 at 16:13
All I can say is thank-you for taking the emotion out of the matter and listing the facts EXACTLY as they are, nothing more, nothing less.
Not only do Leeds have a fair shout with the double jeopardy claim as you state, but let’s remember that the chairman of the Football League, Brian Mawhinney, both presented the Football League’s case against Leeds United at the hearing prior to the start of this season AND delivered the verdict. Judge AND executioner then! Let’s not forget too that the 15 point deduction was ratified by Leeds’ peers. How would Coca Cola react to being asked if Pepsi should be punished for a misdemeanour? Or Ford if asked to judge on a punishment to General Motors?
Whilst precisely what Leeds have done wrong has still to be adequately explained, West Ham last season were found guilty of an offence that, had they been deducted points, would have seen them relegated. There was no doubt as to their guilt, it was proven beyond doubt, yet instead they received a financial punishment. Leeds’ treatment by comparison (a 25 point deduction in total) is grossly disproportionate and, frankly, the whole thing stinks.
If there is any common sense left in the world, the ONLY outcome there can be to the tribunal is the return of all 15 points to Leeds United Football Club. Other clubs can bleat all they like, but the fact of the matter is EVERY team should have started the season aiming to win as many points as possible, regardless of whether some started 15 points behind them or not.
April 17th, 2008 at 16:17
I can’t understand why other clubs are moaning that it would be unfair to them to give Leeds the points back now. Did they go into any game this season thinking ‘well Leeds have got -15 points so lets not try too hard in this game then’? No they didn’t. They have played and tried to win every game just as they would have if Leeds hadn’t had -15. Giving Leeds the points back means the league is decided by what happens on the pitch which is has it should be.
Good artice BTW.
April 17th, 2008 at 16:22
Excellent read, for once a simple and sensible outlook on the matter!
Good reporting!
April 17th, 2008 at 16:25
Speaking as a Swansea fan, an excellent and well reasoned article. Leeds are not awarded these points, they have earned them by playing football. The irony is not lost on me. The administrative buffoons who took Leeds into this situation have long moved on to do their best to wreck other clubs, the big name players have long gone to the four winds, I don’t think that the club even owns Elland Road anymore, so the only people being punished are the thousands of Leeds fans who are totally innocent in this debacle and they like other fans up and down the country are the ones that put the money in each week to pay the salaries of the idiots at the FL
April 17th, 2008 at 16:32
At last an impartial take on the whole situation.
Well done to the author for stating fact.
April 17th, 2008 at 16:34
well done!! first thing ive read about it that has no bias opinion toward either parties involved. just simple, to the point, states the facts. great read.
April 17th, 2008 at 16:47
The Football League prides itself on fair play but this season was thrown into confusion before the start.
Leeds could not do any business in the transfer market all summer, then had 15 points deducted on top of the 10 already imposed. This made the whole season unbalanced as one club was already 15 points behind.
The other clubs probably thought that Leeds were good for relegation and had no hope of promotion. The other clubs then started the season in a false division, basically a farce created by Mawhinney.
Great article by the way!
April 17th, 2008 at 16:52
Rob Herrick if you really are a Swansea fan then I would like to thank you for that fair and gracious remark. If we get our 15 points back and we don’t implode for our last three matches then justice will truly be done, in that the best and second best team in this league will be promoted automatically.
April 17th, 2008 at 17:05
I echo the comments of the people above. The author has actually bothered to look at the facts of the case. Most people haven’t including other Football League Chairman. The Doncaster Rovers chairman John Ryan on commenting on the possibility of Leeds getting the points back, is quoted as saying
“What would happen next? Would Bournemouth, Luton, Rotherham - all the other teams that have lost 10 points, take on the Football League? I think it’s a nonsense.”
He totally misses the point that Leeds have already had 10 points deducted. They are arguing for the return of the 15 points that was additionally deducted by the Football League. This is a completely unprecedented penalty. Nobody has had 25 points deducted before.
This lack of knowledge is another reason why it was so unjust for the other Football League clubs to vote on the penalty imposed on Leeds. That and of course the completely vested interest they had in upholding it.
April 17th, 2008 at 17:22
It is also in the credirors interest that Leeds get their points back and get promoted as they will have a greater chance of getting back to the premiership within 5 years which I believe will trigger a further payment to the creditors equivalent to 50p in the pound. To deny Leeds their 15 points is not only unfair to Leeds United and their magnificent fans but also to their creditors.
The Doncaster chairman is not decided what their response would be to Leeds getting their points back because if they only finish in the play offs they may prefer to play Carlise.
It has been suggested in some quarters that if Leeds get their points back and finish second that the team which finishes third should also get automatic promotion with four teams getting relegated from the Championship next season. If this was a possibility then no doubt those teams with a chance of finishing seventh and therefore getting in the play offs may be hoping Leeds get their points back.
April 17th, 2008 at 17:53
Im afraid that you’ve completely missed the point. The 15 point penalty was nothing to with going into administration. Therefore you point about when the 10 points should have been deducted is irrelevant. The penalty was for breaching the rules regarding coming OUT of administration. I happen to think that Leeds should not have been punished for this alleged breach of rules but im afraid you have the wrong end of what is a complicated stick….
April 17th, 2008 at 18:22
It is always nice to see an unbiased view, some of the manager comments posted are laughable. It just goes to show the ignorance of the whole affair when managers like John Ryan comment on the whole issue (as above). The fact that the decision was made by every other football league club is discraceful…as far as I knew if a company had a conflict of interest as every football league club does that made the decision then isn’t this illegal? Additionally the only reason that Leeds have been put into this position is because of a rule the league themselves made! It was there decision to make sure that clubs in administration pay footballing debts first which is what Leeds did, the fact that the IR had an issue should not even come into it as 75% of people owed cash agreed to the restructuring of the debt. So the IR challeng the re-payment % and then drop there case after we are deducted points, never mind the court case to me this shows that they never had any interest in trying to gain extra revenue only to make an example of us, after they dropped there case in September we should have had the points given back then rather than this whole fiasco.
Lets just hope that common sense prevails and we get our 15 points back
April 17th, 2008 at 18:54
Great comments , but what does happen if the case decision is not given for another four weeks ? Also could this expanation please be sent to the person at the Carlisle newspaper who wrote the most one sided artical ever written and should read this and know the facts
April 17th, 2008 at 19:05
Fantastic report!! Finally someone who has got all the facts straight before voiceing there opinion. We (leeds) have done brilliantly throughout the whole season after being dealt such a mental blow. Thank-you for looking on this situation fairly and consideratly
Lets hope for are 15 points back.
Marching on Together
April 17th, 2008 at 19:17
well said we are not being given anything we earnt house points!
April 17th, 2008 at 19:18
well said we are not being given anything we earnt thouse points!
April 17th, 2008 at 20:36
Great read.
At last an impartial fair report on the situation.
April 17th, 2008 at 23:51
Sitting far away in Oz and getting frustated at the ineptitude of the other clubs was driving me crazy, at last someone with a realistic evaluation. Why would any team with less than 15 points more than Leeds not be classified as cheaters, they would not have deserved to be above Leeds if it was down to the actual football played on the park. Here’s hoping for justice and sanity.
April 18th, 2008 at 00:13
10 points for going into administration,15 for not getting a cva to get out!It’s simple.Bates played chicken with his “Big club” and the football league threw him a lifeline.Thus enabling Leeds United to become Loophole United.41 other teams before danced threw hoops in administration,and then Leeds.The league should have started the league without them,but Bates knew they wouldn’t!
April 18th, 2008 at 05:30
At last, someone who sees the issue from a sensible point of view, no axe to burn & no political issues.
Excellent post!!
April 18th, 2008 at 07:38
I think Richard who left a comment got it right yesterday. The 15 points were nothing to do with administration but more due to the fact the inland revenue would not allow Leeds to enter the agreed CVA package they had set up because they decided they wanted 100% of monies owed to them. 2 weeks after the season started and Leeds had already been isssued the penalty of minus fifteen the inland revenue changed there minds and dropped their claim.
Its Only then Leeds could sign players and were assured of being able to complete the season.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:50
excellent article…
what the other clubs claiming unfairness do not understand, is that at Christmas Leeds should have been 15 points clear, thus enabling some games to be played safe as opposed to going all out for the win and ending up losing (which has happened on occaisions)Had Leeds started the season on the same points as the rest they would surely have been promoted by now..
April 18th, 2008 at 12:52
seabreeze.
Leeds got the cva for coming out of admin and HMRC blocked it so they could take the administrators to court over a football league rule…
the cva was blocked and this had nothing to do with LUFC
April 18th, 2008 at 18:26
Good article, good comments.
As for the other clubs threatening legal action… it’s just a ploy to influence the outcome of the arbitration. Their legal advisors should be telling them there is no argument a court would entertain. Besides if any other club does find themselves in a court room over any of this debacle I think they be there defending a case brought forward by Ken Bates.
Nice to see that some are now looking at the facts rather than just throwing in meanlingless and biased views.
April 18th, 2008 at 19:55
How about this for a compromise? :
“Astor Holdings” open their accounts to public scrutiny.
If there is no trace of Ken Bates in there anywhere, Leeds get their points back.
However, if Bates is involved, Leeds are thrown out of the League and Bates goes to jail for fraud.
April 24th, 2008 at 15:19
Interesting posts but as a couple of others have already pointed out this is not a case of Leeds being done twice. There is no double jeopardy here, although I can’t help feeling that the FLs decision to dock 15 points this season was influenced by Bates pulling a fast one at the end of last. Having said all that, Leeds start to this season was incredible and no doubt inspired by the sense of injustice felt by Wise and the players. This ‘We’ll show you’ attitude and a fair slice of luck enabled them to cancel out the deficit very quickly. Who knows how many points they would have accumulated without the incentive of the 15 point deduction? It’s academic of course but interesting to ponder.
The two questions that need to be asked are 1. Did Leeds warrant a penaly for breaking competition insolvency rules?2. Is 15 points a fair penaly for the breach. The tribunal’s considered response to those two questions will determine how many, if any, points will be given back.
What is clear is that the FL have made a pig’s ear of it. My view (as a Palace supporter) is that Leeds are the second best team in the division and deserve to go up. (But you needed Dougie Freedman to get you there.)